Heinlein threadjack

[Gonnagle]

Then he moved. *sigh*

I feel how that must have been.

In addition to Chess and D&D the other game that I always wanted to play ih hs was one that my brother got one christmass, "Starship Troopers".  Eventually I got to play that with Von Malvalken when we were living together in Boston after graduating. It wasn't the best ballanced game design ever, but it did have the coolest stuff going on. I was really really disappointed in the novel when I got around to reading it.

The book was brilliant- what didn't you like?

[General Scum]

Then he moved. *sigh*

I feel how that must have been.

In addition to Chess and D&D the other game that I always wanted to play ih hs was one that my brother got one christmass, "Starship Troopers".  Eventually I got to play that with Von Malvalken when we were living together in Boston after graduating. It wasn't the best ballanced game design ever, but it did have the coolest stuff going on. I was really really disappointed in the novel when I got around to reading it.

The book was brilliant- what didn't you like?

It seemed like a standard "war book", while thematically interesting that it could have been written about any war ever, I liked the plot descriptions in the game manual better than the book itself. I wanted to learn more about the bugs and their culture and underground tunnels and strategies, and wanted to learn more about the "skinnies" and their cuture and reaction to the bugs and the humans.

[Gonnagle]

Then he moved. *sigh*

I feel how that must have been.

In addition to Chess and D&D the other game that I always wanted to play ih hs was one that my brother got one christmass, "Starship Troopers".  Eventually I got to play that with Von Malvalken when we were living together in Boston after graduating. It wasn't the best ballanced game design ever, but it did have the coolest stuff going on. I was really really disappointed in the novel when I got around to reading it.

The book was brilliant- what didn't you like?

It seemed like a standard "war book", while thematically interesting that it could have been written about any war ever, I liked the plot descriptions in the game manual better than the book itself. I wanted to learn more about the bugs and their culture and underground tunnels and strategies, and wanted to learn more about the "skinnies" and their cuture and reaction to the bugs and the humans.

Fair enough. I enjoyed the "grunt's eye view" not only of the war but of the culture. Mostly I think is was two of the characters- Sergeant Zim, and Colonel DuBois.
I also enjoyed the exploration into a society that rewarded service to such a degree, and the fact that they made it tough to get into the MI, and easy to get out. If you didnt want to be there, they didn't want to have you. Much better than the current system where occasionally convicted felons are given the choice of jail time or military service.

But the book isn't a patch on Heinlein's best work, 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'.

[Minister of Defense]

Then he moved. *sigh*

I feel how that must have been.

In addition to Chess and D&D the other game that I always wanted to play ih hs was one that my brother got one christmass, "Starship Troopers".  Eventually I got to play that with Von Malvalken when we were living together in Boston after graduating. It wasn't the best ballanced game design ever, but it did have the coolest stuff going on. I was really really disappointed in the novel when I got around to reading it.

The book was brilliant- what didn't you like?

It seemed like a standard "war book", while thematically interesting that it could have been written about any war ever, I liked the plot descriptions in the game manual better than the book itself. I wanted to learn more about the bugs and their culture and underground tunnels and strategies, and wanted to learn more about the "skinnies" and their cuture and reaction to the bugs and the humans.

What most people don't know is that Heinlein wrote the book as an anti-anti-war protest.  Heinlein was a military man, having served in both WWI and WWII.  He was asked by several of his fellow sci-fi authors to sign a petition supporting unilateral nuclear disarmament.  He told them not only no, but hell no.  He wrote Starship Troopers in response, interrupting work on what would become Stranger in a Strange Land.

As a quick note, I went to Wiki to double-check some of my facts.  The article has been edited since I read it about 6 years ago, and does not mention fellow authors, but a newspaper article.

[General Scum]

What most people don't know is that Heinlein wrote the book as an anti-anti-war protest. 

I should say that I definitely got that out of the book.  It definitely seemed like only a sci fi book in the sense that by putting it in another time and place it gave him a clean palette to be as abstract as he wanted and say whatever he wanted to say.

[Von Malvalken]

What most people don't know is that Heinlein wrote the book as an anti-anti-war protest. 

I should say that I definitely got that out of the book.  It definitely seemed like only a sci fi book in the sense that by putting it in another time and place it gave him a clean palette to be as abstract as he wanted and say whatever he wanted to say.

I really liked the book...although maybe not the message, so much.

The movie they made in general wasn't all that hot -- but I thought it did do a good job of capturing the fruity-fascist-gorgeous-people nature of the society heinlein describes in the book.

[redoubtable1]

What most people don't know is that Heinlein wrote the book as an anti-anti-war protest.

I should say that I definitely got that out of the book.  It definitely seemed like only a sci fi book in the sense that by putting it in another time and place it gave him a clean palette to be as abstract as he wanted and say whatever he wanted to say.

I really liked the book...although maybe not the message, so much.

The movie they made in general wasn't all that hot -- but I thought it did do a good job of capturing the fruity-fascist-gorgeous-people nature of the society heinlein describes in the book.

Okay. I'm going to join the hijacking of this thread in progress.

The movie and the book should never be compared in the same discussion. EVER. The movie had NOTHING to do with the book outside of the fact there was a war and character names. Paul Verhoeven (the director) admitted in the commentary that he'd never even read the book. That he'd only read a few pages, got bored and decided to do what HE (Verhoeven) wanted.

The society that Heinlein described in the book is not Fascist. While GOVERNMENT service is required for voting, MILITARY service is not. Everyone in that society has the same rights, except the right to vote or serve as an elected official. And people on ACTIVE military duty are PROHIBITED from taking part in government.

I never detected the "fruity" or "gorgeous people" tone in the book. In fact, I can't recall any physical descriptions of people outside of the horrible disfigurement of the recruiting Sergeant.

[Gonnagle]

What most people don't know is that Heinlein wrote the book as an anti-anti-war protest.

I should say that I definitely got that out of the book.  It definitely seemed like only a sci fi book in the sense that by putting it in another time and place it gave him a clean palette to be as abstract as he wanted and say whatever he wanted to say.

I really liked the book...although maybe not the message, so much.

The movie they made in general wasn't all that hot -- but I thought it did do a good job of capturing the fruity-fascist-gorgeous-people nature of the society heinlein describes in the book.

Okay. I'm going to join the hijacking of this thread in progress.

The movie and the book should never be compared in the same discussion. EVER. The movie had NOTHING to do with the book outside of the fact there was a war and character names. Paul Verhoeven (the director) admitted in the commentary that he'd never even read the book. That he'd only read a few pages, got bored and decided to do what HE (Verhoeven) wanted.

The society that Heinlein described in the book is not Fascist. While GOVERNMENT service is required for voting, MILITARY service is not. Everyone in that society has the same rights, except the right to vote or serve as an elected official. And people on ACTIVE military duty are PROHIBITED from taking part in government.

I never detected the "fruity" or "gorgeous people" tone in the book. In fact, I can't recall any physical descriptions of people outside of the horrible disfigurement of the recruiting Sergeant.

Well said!!

[redoubtable1]

Thanks.

And MoD, I just want to correct one item. Heinlein did not serve in WWI or II. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1929 (too late for the first) and was medically separated for Tuberculosis in 1934 (too early for the second).

Though I did come across a short story once that tickled me. It had a What if Heinlein never got tuberculosis plot. It reminded me of A Sound of Thunder. ... After a bit of google-fu, I found it. The Return of William Proxmire. Here's the synopsis from Wikipedia:

The point of view character, a physicist with a time-travel theory, is approached by retired Senator William Proxmire. Proxmire has come up with a scheme to abolish ideas such as space travel, which he sees a waste of money. His scheme is simple; many of his critics cited the science fiction of Robert A. Heinlein as their inspiration. However, the iconic writer only began his career after being discharged from the United States Navy due to tuberculosis. If a time traveler were to cure Heinlein, he would presumably remain in the military and this impact on history would be negated.

Sure enough, the scheme is carried out. However, Proxmire finds out that he has not succeeded as well as he would have liked. Although Heinlein's absence from the literary world of the new timeline did neutralize the science fiction magazines of the 1950s, other authors took Heinlein's place just a decade later - in mainstream literary magazines such as The New Yorker. Science fiction thus gained an air of respectability, and inspired people to even greater achievements. Proxmire's political career ended when this culture of science fiction fans boycotted Wisconsin cheese in response to his Golden Fleece Awards.

The new timeline is far more technologically advanced; solar power satellites can be seen in the night sky, a lunar colony exists, and a mission to Mars is underway. The healthy Heinlein turned out to be as skilled an officer as he would have been an author, and is now an admiral with great influence over an equally healthy space program - he denies the Russians spacecraft, but has placed a number of cosmonauts on the Mars mission as payment for fusion bombs to be used in the ship's ORION drive.

[kolgrim]

Ah the Inn of the Sable Unicorn, where every table is full of Kooks, and the ale runs freely.

That was a very cool story, thanks for the post.

[General Scum]

Well put, and a fun story!

[meriden]

Very cool Heinlein post and alt-history!  Excellent geeky twofer 

[redoubtable1]

I just pulled Requiem off the shelf and read The Return of William Proxmire by Larry Niven. It was as amusing as I remembered.

Now I've got Shibumi, Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress in my stack to read again.

I'll probably have to read Glory Road, Friday, Double Star, The Puppet Masters, Revolt in 2100 and some others as well.

I used to have a very extensive Heinlein collection, now it's just extensive. I lost a box of books during a move and half of my Heinlein went away. (I just noticed The Puppet Masters is one I lost.) But I have a crapload of credit at a used-book store. I'll just have to expend that and replace some. (If I can find the chit.)

[Von Malvalken]

The society that Heinlein described in the book is not Fascist. While GOVERNMENT service is required for voting, MILITARY service is not. Everyone in that society has the same rights, except the right to vote or serve as an elected official. And people on ACTIVE military duty are PROHIBITED from taking part in government.

I never detected the "fruity" or "gorgeous people" tone in the book. In fact, I can't recall any physical descriptions of people outside of the horrible disfigurement of the recruiting Sergeant.

Well, it's been awhile since I read it, so I'll have to go give it a look.

At the risk of misquoting badly, I am remembering a good portion of the book being about the political indoctrination the high school students receive from the ex-military guy, the public floggings, the brutal training of the MIs, and perhaps somewhat liberally labeling that as fascist...along with, yes, the government-service-for-the-franchise trade.

As far as the "fruity-gorgeous-people" bit...I'll need to go give it a look, because you may be right. But my recollection of my reaction on seeing the movie was that it was a pretty accurate representation of what I remembered from the book in that regard. However, I will freely admit that my loathing for the societal system Heinlein outlined might simply have colored my recollections of the book: I may have mentally painted it with a brush better suited to Aldous Huxley.

[Von Malvalken]

I went to my Heinlein collection and had the same experience! =(

Starship Troopers wasn't there.

Neither were Asimov's Naked Sun and Robots of the Dawn (the last, in particular, one of my faves.)

So I just went on a mini-Amazon.com-orgy.

For which you, O IOC, must take the blame! And may also take the credit! =)